A behind the scenes look at my interview about personal blogging with Heather Armstrong and Mrs Woog at the 2015 Problogger conference.
People had been asking me all day if I was nervous. To be honest, I wasn’t. Why would I be? I wasn’t the headliner of this show. I was just the white noise between two rock stars. No one was coming to see me.
I was excited. I was about to interview two of the biggest bloggers in the world. Two women I really admire. Women I want to be like. Heather Armstrong and Mrs Woog. Legends.
I’ve interviewed a number of Prime Ministers, current and former. I’ve spoken with industry leaders and world experts about the economy and our health and education systems. I’ve witnessed dead-of-night leadership coups and challenges…
Getting your classic “get fucked” glare from the late Malcolm Fraser. Old mate was not a fan of the media.
Hawkie. A little bit more media friendly…Especially to the young female journos. Check out that grip.
But that’s not quite the same as doing an interview with someone you really admire and whose opinion actually matters to you.
I was jittery with excitement but my nerves were steady… Until I realised my two rock stars were not exactly rocking the confidence. They were, in fact, not. doing. well.
Turns out Mrs Woog hates speaking in public and just wanted the whole thing to be over. Heather was really homesick and missing her kids. I started to feel sick myself as I realised I might need to actually work to pull this session together. I wasn’t going to be able to sit back and watch the show unfold.
That’s when the nerves kicked in.
And the need to wee. Damned pregnant bladder.
I bolted to the loo and back with minutes to spare and ended up huffing on to the stage like a huge preggo just as the session was about to start. Heather still looked sad and Mrs Woog was fidgeting with nervousness as someone thrust a microphone in my face.
I wanted to offer something encouraging to Mrs Woog and something profound and heartfelt to Heather. If I’d been a little more thoughtful and less huffy, I would’ve had a really special moment with them both.
But instead, I picked up my phone, checked my questions and tried to catch my breath. Smoooooth.
Don’t we all look SO confident? Like we’re about to change lives? (that’s water in that wine glass btw)
I think this is the point I realised things might be about to unravel. Heather was radiating disinterest and Mrs Woog kept patting the couch and telling me to JUST GET STARTED ALREADY.
I’ve been told my face looked a little like this:
So, I picked up the mic and pathetically whimpered “hi,” sounding like a tweaky 14 year old. I felt like an idiot and mentally slapped myself. I steadied my voice, cracked a joke or two and pretended I had some right to be on that stage.
And then, Mrs Woog, despite all her protestations of nerves, took charge. She was so easy to talk to I instantly relaxed. She was the rock star I wanted needed her to be.
And then there was Heather…
As a journalist, you learn an interview can go three ways:
1. You ask a question. You get a direct answer (rare)
2. You ask a question. You get a PR approved message that is in alignment with the interviewee’s agenda and doesn’t really address the question (a politician specialty)
3. You ask a question. You get a ramble that has a barely tangible link to the question but is mostly unusable in the context of the interview because it’s depressing and the opposite of what you wanted them to say.
Number three is not usually a disaster for a journo because you can just leave it out. You can edit it out of the footage or use a different quote in your article.
Not the same when the interview is live. In front of hundreds of enthused and engaged bloggers, eager to learn from the pros.
So when Heather sat on stage and told the audience how soul destroying it was to do sponsored posts, I died a little bit on the inside. Because I knew all anyone was hearing was “personal blogging is dead”.
Not ideal when the topic of your session is ‘how to make money from personal blogging’. This was not what people had come to hear. They’d come to hear the personal success stories of two of the best. What they were hearing was, “it’s pointless. Give up now.”
But… but…. but…. Heather, let’s try that again….
I’m new to this blogging thing. I’ve been writing and reporting for years, but blogging is new for me. And I love it. I love the community, I love the opportunities. I’m excited and eager and raring to go. I wanted to be just like Heather.
Until I interviewed her on stage.
I ended up feeling sad for her. She’s been blogging non-stop for 15 years and she’s been burned and burnt out. She’s been relentlessly attacked and her children have been targeted. She’s made an absolute fortune doing it but it means nothing to her because she feels like she’s sold out.
“The only way that you can make money in the States is through sponsored content,” she said, pointing out that brands want you to jump through hoops until you lose sight of who you are as a person.
“Writing sponsored content for me was becoming a gruelling experience.”
She told us all how all of her friends hate blogging and want to quit.
“I don’t know a single one of us who’s happy doing it anymore,” she said. “The joy that it brought us is completely gone.”
“A blog post is my heart. A blog post is all of me and I had to stop giving it away. I don’t want to put my children through this anymore .”
WHAT A RAY OF SUNSHINE. But then again, can you blame her? After 15 years, anyone can feel disillusioned and fed up.
Check out our faces….
I can’t tell you just how aware I was that it was going badly. I could feel the shock and disappointment rolling in from the audience. It was hitting me in waves of ‘what the fuck?’
I tried to get a more helpful, positive answer out of her. I tried. But this wasn’t a hard-hitting political interview. No one wanted to see me go in for the kill. This was an interview with a sad and disillusioned woman who wouldn’t have responded well to a grilling.
There’s a point in some interviews when, as a journalist, you know it’s over. There’s no point trying to save it. You can ask the question 18 different ways and the subject will keep giving the same depressing answer. That’s when you stop asking.
That’s when you turn the spotlight over to the hilarious ray of light sitting on the other side of you and ask, “but what about here in Australia?” with desperate pleading in your eyes. Eyes that scream “tell me it’s DIFFERENT here in Australia!” And that delightful woman tells you Australia is a whole different ball game.
Let’s all take a moment to celebrate and rejoice in the amazing Mrs Woog.
Mrs Woog says the future’s in podcasting and Youtube. “The young’uns like to do their lipsticks on the YouTube”
I will love her forever. She knew the audience wasn’t there to hear a sob story about how blogging sucks your soul dry. That’s one woman’s personal journey and it needn’t apply to the rest of us.
Mrs Woog knew the audience could listen to that tale of woe or they could learn something practical about the situation in Australia.
She told us about the opportunities in Australia and how things are on the way up.
“We are seeing a rise in how much money is expected and dedicated online.”
She gave practical advice about alternate income streams like freelancing, copywriting, e-products and advertising. She told us that if you write a sponsored post in the same way you’d write any other post, with the same voice, your audience will stick by you.
“I make sure it doesn’t really differ from my regular posts.”
She told us how you can be just as creative as you want, while still making money. It’s all down to your approach, your attitude and how genuine you are. And, if writing sponsored content really gets you down, don’t do it!
“Every day, just tell a story”
And that’s the message I’ll take away from our session. I’ll just keep telling my stories. Thanks Mrs Woog xxx
Did you come to our session? What did you think?
With Heather Armstrong
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148 comments
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I happened upon this article and found it very interesting! I am a full-time craft and DIY blogger, I make over six figures blogging, and I’ve been doing it for eight years. I live in the US so I wasn’t at the conference, but the way I feel about sponsored content is this: you don’t have to do it. I do it sometimes, but I wait until it’s a good fit. There’s no sense in complaining about them because 1) you can moderate the # of posts you choose to take and 2) there are other ways to make money in blogging besides sponsored posts.
Blogging isn’t dead, though I’ve heard that said. My advertising dollars are down like everyone else’s, but my blog readership is up. In terms of income, I follow opportunities as they become available. I do a little bit of everything including sponsored posts. Everything in moderation I guess?
Thank you for that Amy, that’s so interesting. And you are completely right – you don’t have to do anything you don’t want to do. That’s the beauty of being a blogger and working for yourself! I’m an ex-journalist and most days were spent writing things I didn’t necessarily want to write but I did it because it was my job! Now I get to pick and choose what I write.
[…] missed sharing here but have been ruminating so much about blogging and whether it’s dead or not, and when I do feel like writing should I be doing it here, on my other blog, in my journal, […]
The “she was homesick and missed her kids” excuse, while generous, is just not acceptable. She was being paid (paid a fair amount I’m assuming… including a trip to Australia) to perform a job. I can’t cross my arms and spend 8 hours pouting at my desk because “I’d rather be home”. And believe me, I’d ALWAYS rather be home. But as a professional, she doesn’t get to rest on excuses like that for poor behavior. Just as I wont get paid if I decide to spend the day moping instead of working.
[…] Recently Heather went to Australia to speak at a ProBlogger conference and by all accounts took a steaming shit on the stage. […]
You handled a tricky situation with a lot of grace and humour. It didn’t end up being exactly on topic but you know what – it sparked thought and conversation and that’s not a bad thing. (And that photo of you and Bob Hawke is too cute!)
Coming out of my fog to comment now! Lady, you did a grand job. You held it together so well, and you were chosen to moderate for a reason. Skillz. All the skillz. To be honest I wasn’t that phased about what Heather said- I understand she’s had a tough journey. The awkwardness was in the air though and that was tough. You handled that vibe with such professionalism and aplomb. Woogy was pure gold. Her attitude to blogging and her words were totally encouraging and inspiring. I also aspire to take my shoes off on stage! She rocks! 🙂 I didn’t come out of there deflated, I think we chose to take from things what we will, and it’s handy to hear both sides of the story. We also know that although Heather is over it now, clearly blogging has been a launching pad for many successes and so in that sense we can see that it can be a platform to lead us to other ways of monetising. If only that was the message that was communicated a bit more. xx
*choose. Shit. I really need some sleep. And non-cracked nipples. They are limiting my brain capacity, clearly. xx
Perfectly said!
Frankly, Heather’s reputation has been deteriorating for some time now and good for you for speaking the truth and not letting it slide. If she’s so miserable doing it, she should do us all a favor and stop talking about it.
I really don’t want this to be taken as an attack on Heather. I think she’s lovely and she did have some good points about not expecting it all to be easy money. But I do agree that no one should do anything they don’t want to do. If it makes you miserable, just stop! That’s the joy of working for yourself, there’s no one forcing you to do anything you don’t want to do.
Forgot to add, it sounds like you and Kayte were consumate professionals, kudos to you both!
Thanks Cate xxx
I’ve never heard of Heather Dooce (I assume that’s her surname) but as an expat in Berlin I was unable to attend problogger this year. As someone who worked for 7 years running a not for profit and did lots of public speaking, I know how easy it is to be too honest depending on your recent experiences (especially when I was asked during my own talks for advice on how/why to start a NFP). But that said, I’ve been reading comments and posts from a number of disappointed bloggers. Sounds like Heather was totally mismatched for that particular slot (maybe someone from a blogging agency would have been more apt)? I can’t help feeling that she could have been a little more gracious having received a paid trip to Australia, but maybe her honesty is her schtick? At least she got people talking…
I think someone from a blogging agency would have been a great addition Cate!
I think Heather was trying to just tell it like she saw it. I’m sure she wasn’t trying to upset people and she actually did apologise a couple of times in her answers. It’s just a shame she couldn’t reflect back on the things that helped her build her company and focus on some other aspects of her success besides sponsored posts which she seems to have the biggest disdain for.
Thanks for speaking so openly and honest about this. I was in the audience and although I am not a personal blogger (food), I can see how it apeared disheartening. However, I am so proud of the Australian blogging community to take away what they have from this. Write what you love, tell stories, take care of yourself and enjoy what you do. I think you did fantastically and you’ve got yourself a new fan girl! Bec x
Thanks so much Bec, that’s so lovely of you to say! I don’t think anyone needed to hear they’ll make billions from their blogs, but something useful and practical would have been nice to hear 😉
I hadn’t heard of Heather before Problogger so I read a few of her recent posts before the sessions and I wasn’t that fussed on them so when she started getting all negative I just tuned out and tuned back in when you spoke to Mrs Woog! So I actually came away from that session feeling positive and inspired that if I make money from blogging it will be because i’ve worked hard to get there and if I don’t then so be it! You were great, Mrs Woog was great and overall Problogger was motivating and inspiring for me personally so one little gitch in the weekend wasn’t going to ruin it!
*glitch
PS as for the comment below somewhere that Problogger is about the do’s and don’ts and disillusioning newbies into thinking they will make money when they won’t – if that’s the message people came away with then I wasn’t at the same conference! I came away with the message I would have to work bloody hard to succeed and stories of success as well as failure that were about “this is what I did so you work out your why, how and when etc and make it happen for you”.
I agree so much Jacinta. That’s exactly what I felt like after the conference. It was much more about getting my arse into gear and working hard and not expecting to be an overnight success.
Yay Jacinta! I wish everyone was like you! Such a positive attitude. That’s what we all need. I think that’s what Mrs Woog was talking about too. If you approach it with a great attitude rather than feeling like it’s a chore, you’ll probably do really well out of it.
Well done holding that all together! I don’t think we need to be disillusioned at all, but it’s a good lesson to stay true to yourself and make sure it’s NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!! x
That’s exactly what I learnt Bron. If you write the same way, with your own voice and you approach it all with a great attitude, there’s no reason it should all get you down. xx
Love all of what you’ve written Lauren. I was worried about about this session after reading Dooce’s interview on Problogger before the conference. Where I find the disconnect is that Dooce is still effectively making money because of her blog. She wouldn’t have a speaking career without it. That should have been her message – that just because sponsored content doesn’t work for her any more, that there are other ways to make an income based on your blogging platform.
Spot on Nikki. There are so many other way to make money and Mrs Woog mentioned quite a few in the session (thank god for Mrs W!). Sponsored content is just one way and if it’s too hard, then you don’t have to do it.
I’d hoped she’d be able to draw on her years of experience and success and offer something more practical for the hundreds who had turned up to hear her speak.
Yes!! She got flown half way around the world because of her blog. I’m sure she didn’t do it for nothing (nor should she). That’s what irked me, she took the gig then said that blogging was dead in the water. It may be for her, but geez, put on a professional face and tell people what they can do, not what they can’t.
Mrs Woog saved the day!
Yay for Mrs Woog!
Wow, just wow! What an interview to have to wrangle. I wasn’t at ProBlogger to see it, but thank goodness for your professionalism and for Mrs Woog’s positivity. Let’s hope personal blogging in Australia doesn’t go the way of the US! Love you honesty in this post Lauren.
Thanks so much Erika! I think we all hope things don’t go the way of the US, but even if it does, there are still so many other ways to make an income from blogging. It’s not just about sponsored content.
I LOVED what Heather said. I think it would have been very tempting to say what people wanted to hear but she didn’t. She told the truth about the monetisation of her blog. She’s done incredibly well but personal blogging has changed, and how people monetise their personal blogs is changing. Kayte also told her truth, and Kayte writes a great sponsored post but they’re two very different writers with two different styles. I would have liked to have heard more about the process of the monetisation for Heather, how did it start, what was she charging at the height of her career, what changed in the market? Would she have done anything differently if she had her time again? I loved that we got a chance to ask about what was in her future (that was me who thanked her for her honesty and asked what she saw happening next). You can see that she’s already moving to microblogging, there was also talk of a podcast and more public speaking. I’d go and see her again as I think she’s been brave enough to move forward in the industry. Big big thanks to Darren and the team for bringing her to Oz.
She definitely could have focused more on what opportunities she has coming up Kirsty (which have come her way because of her blog) and perhaps reflected on what helped her succeed all those years ago. Unfortunately she chose to focus on the very recent past and didn’t seem to want to look much beyond her dissatisfaction and disillusionment. I think it was interesting to hear what’s happened for her, but it’s important to realise that’s just her experience and doesn’t necessarily mean things will be like that for anyone else. Especially here in Australia.
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There has been so much talk of this session. Not having been there, I didn’t know what to believe. Surely a well respected blogger wouldn’t be telling eager bloggers at a professional blogging conference that blogging is dead?? Great to hear your side of the story. It sounds like you handled it well and yay for Mrs Woog.
Renee she never actually used the words “personal blogging is dead”. I listened back to the recordings a couple of times to confirm it. I’m not sure where that phrase started, but people seem to have taken it and run with it.
What she did say was that personal bloggers who do a lot of sponsored content were finding it soul destroying and it was ruining the real storytellers. I think that’s just one aspect of blogging and didn’t really address all the bloggers who don’t do sponsored content and still write beautiful stories.
I wasn’t there but I’ve certainly heard a lot about it! I feel for you – tough interviewee. And I also feel for the event organisers, because I’m pretty sure that’s not what they were after when they booked her for the conference. It’s left me pondering if Heather perhaps should have withdrawn from the conference given how jaded and unenthusiastic she now is – I think it’s what I would have felt to do in the same situation. But who knows, because I’ve never been in that situation and probably never will be!!!!
Visiting from #teamIBOT x
I think she should have been a bit more honest about whether she could offer practical advice or not. I think the organisers were under the impression that she would. Unfortunately she didn’t… 🙁
Such a shame. Kinda glad I didn’t get there this year …
I’ve been thinking about this post all day, and had to come back to leave another comment.
I was once disappointed by my idol. And I told them. They were already feeling fragile – and so I copped their wrath. Perhaps I was the straw the broke the camel’s back? In hindsight I’d never have told them how I felt, because they didn’t really owe me as a fan anything. 8 years later, and a blog reader recently told me I disappointed her when she met me. It hurt me so much, and now I feel I have an even bigger responsibility to be ‘on’ to everyone I meet.
I really hope the discussion around Heather’s talks at Problogger doesn’t hurt her too much. She spoke about how she was under so much scrutiny – and I bet she’d feel terrible thinking she’d let down 700 bloggers.
I wonder whether attendees went in expecting a how-to, rather than a frank discussion? I wonder how many attendees read her interview with Stacey on the Problogger site the weeks prior?
Heather spoke her truth – which is what she and other personal bloggers always promote. She talked about what’s gone wrong for her through sponsored content – this could be seen as being a downer, but I see it as guidance for bloggers not to let sponsored content take over a blog.
I definitely think people were expecting a ‘how to’ – I mean, the session was called “how to monetise a personal blog” so I’m pretty sure people were sitting there waiting for some great ideas on how they could start to earn some money. What they got was the story of one person’s struggle which was compelling in a way, but it was also just one person’s story and it wasn’t particularly relevant for Aussies.
I don’t think Heather would be too hurt. I think she’s dealt with much worse stuff in her time. I don’t think anyone has been nasty or callous in their assessment. Just disappointed that their enthusiasm was effectively crushed by someone as influential as Heather.
Oh god Heather was so depressing, I felt so sorry for you having to try and push on with the questions. I’m glad Mrs Woog was there or I fear there would have been a mass exit from the room. I’m really not sure why she agreed to do the interview if she clearly didn’t agree with the topic or have any interest in giving positive feedback about it. I have been so impressed with how everyone in the blogging community has risen up though and rebounded with the notion that personal blogging and story telling are not dead and are very much alive and well here in Australia. I think it really shows the difference between Americans and Australians.
Yes Toni! There’s a huge difference between the Americans and the Aussies. I think we have such a different (positive) attitude here and maybe we’re more realistic about it all. I hope we are!
Oh please, please do not judge Americans by this one blogger. Please don’t.
Haha, never Kitty! I love Americans!
Lauren – you did a fantastic job and I really got a lot out of the session too. While honest, I think Heather was being a bit selfish or self-indulgent at least. She’s made her money from blogging, and now she’s wiping her hands of it is the way it came across. Mrs Woog was fantastic and I’m so glad you had the two of them to bounce off (well you and Mrs Woog bounced off each other really well and Heather was in her own world really). In a former life (well that’s how long ago it feels) I was a TV journo and presenter too and interviewed Hawke, Keating, Howard, Hewson – was he ever a PM, I can’t remember (showing my age here). I remember Bob Hawke to be exactly like you experienced him, all slap and tickle.
She was in her own world wasn’t she Kathy?! Like she’d forgotten why she was there.
Bob Hawke is a bloody lad isn’t he? Funny bloke. He gets away with murder (and Hewson was Opposition leader)
I didn’t attend ProBlogger mainly because I am very against the idea of blog do’s and don’ts. I think what makes blogs special is their points of difference. If everyone was to do the same thing I don’t believe blogging would stand a chance – the blogs that attract me are blogs that have personalities of their own not the personality they have picked up at a session. But I digress.
Dooce is speaking her truth, which is something we urge bloggers to do. She was very open about how she felt when she left. I think she should have been replaced at the conference. She had indicated what she was going to say in her writing about the reasons she quit.
Her children have grown up and I think she is aware that she can no longer write their stories which was a big part of her story. Something covered in a brilliant post written by Carly Findlay’s post about blogging and kids http://carlyfindlay.blogspot.com.au/2015/07/parents-blogging-about-their-children.html
The other truth, in any country, is that it is extremely hard to make money out of blogging and it is almost impossible unless you are a really good writer. Which Dooce is. And so is Woog and so are you.
I don’t think that’s what Problogger is about Lana. I didn’t feel like I was being told the dos and don’ts of blogging. I came away feeling really inspired to try new things and to focus on why I blog and what makes me happy about blogging rather than what I “should” be doing. In fact I think there was quite a focus on ignoring the ‘rules’ and simply trusting what drives you. The only ‘rules’ I heard were around productivity and how to make the most of your time which I found really useful because I’m such a procrastinator.
Perhaps I am wrong, of course I could be, after all I am only relying on the outtakes I see. But I do think that Problogger feeds bloggers a myth. Virtually none of the people that attend will make money from their blog. At least not money they can live on. Ironically Problogger makes money by telling them they can.
Contentious perhaps but sadly I believe it to be true
We certainly don’t try to feed that myth Lana.
I’ve written many times about how most bloggers don’t make a living from blogging and we’ve been pretty transparent with running numerous polls over the years and reporting the results.
Here’s a little video I made only a couple of months ago with such results that show full time bloggers are well and truly in the minority (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWmVGvUirKQ).
I’ve presented stats like this from our stage numerous times over the last 6 years of our event because I do see other speakers, authors and bloggers (largely from other parts of the planet) hyping up blogging as being easy/quick money. In my experience it is anything easy or quick.
In terms of the number of our attendees making a living from their blogs – in the survey we do when they buy tickets around 10% said they make a full time living from their blogs. While we have no way of measuring exactly what that means it’s an indication that at least some are at that level. Again – it’s not the majority or even the norm – but I’d say there are is a decent amount of full time bloggers among our attendees and in the wider Aussie blogosphere.
This doesn’t count speakers (most of whom are full time) or the growing number of our attendees who use their blogs to drive business to their offline businesses (making money indirectly as a result of the profile their blog helps them build.
Then there’s a sizeable chunk of attendees who say they make enough from their blogs to call it a part time job (around 20%) and another 40% who say they make a ‘small income’ from their blogs.
We share these stats every year in the lead up to the event so everyone knows where things are at, to be transparent but also in the hope of helping people have realistic expectations.
In terms of telling people how to blog – we’re really careful on that front too. There’s so much variation in how people use blogs and we’re really careful in trying to show case a variety of bloggers doing different things.
Each year we feature bloggers making money through selling their own products, services, working with brands and those who are blogging with other agenda (ie bringing about social change). We also work hard to try to find bloggers from a variety of niches, using different tools and are really clear with our speakers to not present anything as ‘the way’ or a ‘blueprint’ because there’s so many different legitimate approaches.
No two bloggers find success the same way. While there are certainly approaches and strategies that many bloggers share my hope is that attendees of our event come away having seen a variety of approaches and inspired to forge their own path.
Thank you for your comment Darren! That’s a message I’ve heard loud and clear from you in the past. I think you outlined it really clearly in one of your podcasts as well.
I think sometimes people hear “problogger” and think it’s all about making money and that you’re selling some formula to get rich quick, but I haven’t found that to be the case at all. Least of all at the conference.
The conference, for me, was far more about inspiration and motivation. I came away feeling energised and excited about all the possibilities but never once felt like I had to fit any sort of mould to do that.
And I have to say I LOVED EVERY SECOND! Can’t wait for next year.
Lauren – it definitely is a tough misconception to break down but we’ll keep trying to present as realistic, non hyped and non formulaic approach as we can to to make the conference as accessible as possible. Thanks for being a part of it.
Thank heavens for Mrs Woog is all I can say. I laughed my head off at her. She’s such a character in real life as well as in print. I can’t believe you were nervous you gorgeous thing. You were the essence of professionalism.
Oh Pinky you sweetheart! Thank you for politely ignoring my nerves 😉 xxxx
I really enjoyed your session Lauren but unlike most people, I actually appreciated what Heather said. I think it was important for her to let people know that the way personal bloggers have made money in the past is changing. That doesn’t mean giving up, it means get creative. I think the message Heather was trying to convey (and may have failed at) was that personal bloggers shouldn’t expect to make an awful lot of money out of sponsored content and advertising alone. As most bloggers know the way to make the big bucks is through e-products, podcasts, video series, speaking engagements, courses and events. I actually was pleased to hear Heather’s honesty and will continue to blog because I enjoy it and if someday I do want to make a lot of money out of it (and hope to be somewhat as successful as Dooce) then I’ll look into different income streams to help generate that.
On a side note, as a journalism student I was in awe of your interview – I could never do that. You handled it with grace and poise and I left feeling really inspired by the incredible journalistic skills you showed in a tricky situation.
Love, Tess from Success Undressed xx
Oh Tess, what a beautiful thing to say! Thank you so much, it means a lot. I hope you get to experience some tricky interviews in your career because they really are a challenge that makes you better at what you do. Anyone can do an easy interview but it takes some skill to try and get the right answer from a reluctant subject. And make sure you interview everyone and anyone! It’s great to practice and can be great fun. Hopefully you don’t have to do too many live interviews though. There’s a lot to be said for the editing process!
Plus, I’m so so glad you took something away from the session. You’ve definitely got the right attitude and if you read between the lines you can see something worthwhile in what Heather said. And it was backed up by Mrs Woog who talked about all the other streams we should be looking at. Xxx
Wow, that would have been beyond tough and sadly disappointing. But a great way to decide it’s time for a new idol. Unfortunate I didn’t make PB due to life with a new Bub… A future you’re soon to have again 😉 but honestly I had no idea who Dooce was before the announcement haha I was more keen to see Ruth Soukup, who I hear was every bit as lovely as hoped.
It is very much alive and well here in Australia and you are rocking it. In fact, I may have been tempted to hand out my other business cards if I was in your position that day… The ones that say ‘psychologist’ ? it sounds like Mrs Woog helped save the day.
Bahaha! I totally needed a psych degree to handle that interview Holly. It’s like she needed to offload all her worries. It’s just unfortunate it was in front of hundreds of other people!
Definitely not the most effective place for a therapy session lol but maybe she went home a little lighter on baggage ?
Thank you for this post Lauren. I didn’t attend the session but heard about it – it sounded like you handled it very well (no surprises there!). I’m not really sure why Heather bothered to attend if she was in such a bad place in life, the whole thing seems very sad to me…
I think she’s pretty disillusioned and she was homesick on top of everything else so she wasn’t in the best mood to start with.
It is a bit sad, but I think she was just trying to be honest with her own experience. It’s just a shame she couldn’t offer any advice for people who are just starting out now.
Oh, that would have been so hard to moderate! I’m glad they had a pro in the job.
I wasn’t at PBE, but I have heard lots about this session. It was nice to hear your side of it. It sounds like you did fabulously considering what you had. xx
Thanks Jess! It definitely wasn’t what I thought it would be but it was still a great experience.
Oh god, interview hell! You did well to survive it.
I think it’s disappointing and kind of unprofessional of Heather considering her audience. But it surprises me not a bit that Mrs Woog saved the day. What a legend.
xx
Thank god for Mrs Woog! She actually had a far more relevant message for the Aussie bloggers
At the time, it did feel like a punch in the guts – we’re wasting our time blogging for a buck – kind of vibe. But after having a chat with Mrs Woog and understanding Heather was having a hard time – it’s kind of a good thing it happened. It’s real life! It’s reality. Heather has been through the highest of highs and lowest of lows and it’s good to see that side of blogging. It’s not all rainbows and puppy dogs. It was almost a lesson in…..Blog success can happen but maybe take a light hearted approach to it like Mrs Woog, be careful what you say and have a sense of humour when it comes to dealing with trolls.
You were awesome – but I already knew you would be. It’s so your thing, and you nailed it xx
Yes Jo, that’s true! I’m so glad you got something out of it. That’s a really great message. And thank you sweetheart, it was awesome to have your support. I loved having my team in the room xx
I spent a long time kicking myself for not going to that session, right now I am so very pleased. As a new blogger trying to find my way, this sounds very much like it could have been the thing that sent me over the edge, never to come back. So sorry you were in that situation xx
I’m really scared it did that to some people Nicole! I’m hoping that most people could see that it’s just one person’s experience and opinion and it doesn’t need to apply to everyone, especially not here in Australia.
I must admit I hadn’t heard of Heather until I saw the PB speaker list, so I didn’t have an expectation around what she was or wasn’t like. I went to her first session and while it was in some ways a bit depressing (and scary!) for a newbie like me, I could see the relevance and took it for what it was. However after listening to her in your session, I really couldn’t understand why on earth she was there! Yes she’s been burnt, and yes she’s burned out, I get that, but all the more reason why she should have bowed out and let someone with more positivity and practical advice to offer, stand in. Thank goodness for you and Mrs Woog. You did an awesome job Lauren!
Thanks so much Gabbi! I guess she was here because she’s had so much experience and had such success but we just got her at the wrong point in her life. Maybe if it had been last year she would have been much more helpful.
Firstly, I though you did an ace job, I really did. To me you handled it all perfectly and it wasn’t just the awesome Mrs Woog who saved it – you did too. It was pretty depressing though and I have to admit, I did die a little bit in the audience as I listened to Heather, especially as my blog is almost totally personal. However I still love it and love writing it and love the blogging industry and I think that Heather was just in a very bad place at that particular time and probably wasn’t the best person to talk in this session. I’ve decided to take her advice with a pinch of salt and move on. xx
Aw Robyn you’re too kind. And I think everyone needs to take what she said with a pinch of salt. It wasn’t even really advice when you think about it. It was just her experience. I think Mrs Woog had the great advice.
I didn’t go to the session but it was one that was talked about a lot. It sounds like you did a good save, and that the audience was blessed to have you there! I (think) I look forward to listening to the recording. But mostly just to hear you say “shitload” ?
Haha, you should definitely listen back! I think you’ll hear a few points where I was literally speechless and scrambling for something to say. Awkward!
When I heard Heather was quitting blogging, I assumed they’d replace her at ProBlogger. Was really surprised that she was still presenting.
I think the big gap is in the discussions beforehand. If she didn’t have anything to add to a panel about monetising a blog, she needed to say so. But also, whoever organised the session needed to vet what her potential advice would be.
I think she has a point, but one that was made very poorly and with complete shut-down. She’s been blogging for 15 years, yes. She’s over it, yes. But she’s made a lot of money doing it and could share that knowledge without telling a room full of people who are hanging on her every word that their souls will rot it they try to make money from personal blogging.
Hooray for Mrs Woog. The best part about her words was that they were genuine. She wasn’t just trying to counter Heather; she genuinely enjoys writing sponsored content and blogging every day and wasn’t having a bar of the negative Nelly routine.
Well done Lauren. And thanks for sharing all of this so honestly. x
I think they did a lot of chatting with her before she came out and they definitely did discuss cancelling her altogether but it was decided she still had a lot to offer. Unfortunately she was in a bad place that afternoon and was really missing her kids and her home so I think that played a big part in her decision to blow up the whole session and just lay it out there with a lot of negativity. I really believe she hadn’t intended to say all of that stuff, it was just her mood at the time.
And yes, Mrs Woog couldn’t have been more opposite! She has such a great attitude and her experience is so much more relevant to all of us and where we are at.
Thanks Lauren. So interesting. I didn’t mean it to come across as ‘PB dropped the ball’, but reading it back, that’s exactly what it sounds like! Lots of warning signs but yes, you never can predict someone’s mood and energy levels on the day.
(Loving your tum updates by the way. Hope you’re feeling well. x)
Oh no! Crushing 🙁 I wasn’t there thanks to small baby who refuses to be without me… I wish I was, although I may have been inspired into quitting after Heather 🙁 I’m glad Mrs Woog was much more upbeat! Some people should know we idolise them and they shouldn’t crush our dreams!
I wish she had thought a bit more about what her message would mean to the hundreds of people who turned up to hear her speak Lu!
I was at the session and Mrs Woog definitely saved the whole thing from tanking. She was awesome! Your questions were great and you handled the awkward answers brilliantly. I think it’s a shame more Aussie bloggers weren’t up there, offering their insights into how to make money from personal blogging. There’s so many of us having a crack at it (& earning fairly decent coin from it!) It would’ve been more relevant to the audience and a lot more fun to listen to!
I totally agree Kirsten. you are comparing two totally different countries at two totally different stages of brands working with bloggers.
I was a little shocked as I don’t thing there was much gained from the session as people were expecting something else.
But on another hand Heather did have a point that to get paid meant you have to change your blog posts / content to reflect what brands are wanting. No different to Mrs Woog working with the gas company I am sure she wouldn’t be putting that sort of content out there if she wasn’t getting paid so it is her stepping away from her personal blogging content.
Bec, I think Mrs Woog had a really good message about not changing your posts at all for sponsored content. She talked about how it was actually far better to write in the exact same way whether it’s sponsored or not. I think it’s a challenge to do that but if it’s done well, it’s what will make you really successful.
I definitely think it would be much more relevant in the future to focus on aussie bloggers Kirsten. I think what we’ve learnt from Heather is that the situation in the US is completely different to the situation here. Even if she had been really positive about everything, I still think her message wouldn’t have been as important or relevant as Mrs Woog’s
I have heard so much chatter about Dooce! I also heard you did a smashing job as moderator, JUST SO YOU KNOW! So interesting to hear this from your perspective. Thank you for writing this. Also YOU + BOB = HILARIOUS.
x pip
Thank you so much Pip, that really means a lot! And how awesome is Bob Hawke? What a bloody character.
Hi Lauren. Man. I walked out of that session shaking my head. As we stood in the line in the ladies, we all dissected what had just happened. Where was the amazing Dooce we’d seen the day before?! I appreciate she was being honest, but it felt like she had just pulled a gun out from under her seat & mowed us all down. Then, as continued chatting in the loos, as we are inclined to do, we started to feel a little bit sorry for Heather. She was obviously in a really bad place. Kudos to you & Mrs Woog who really tried to shift the mood & for me, that session was one of the highlights of PB. Mrs Woog made an incorrect accidental pit stop to our room later that night & we chatted about what had happened & she made me feel a whole lot better about THAT conversation. And you know what, shit happens. We do what we do. I was happy to see Heather out nailing it on the dance floor later that night. Hope she finds what she’s looking for. xx
I feel a bit sorry for her too Shan. It must be hard to be in limbo like she is. She’s done this for so long and has made this huge decision to take a step back and is now feeling lost and is just treading water. No wonder she didn’t really have much encouragement to give.
Thank you for writing this I did not attend a PB but this topic certainly made th rounds and I was discussing it with a bloggy friend with no context or detail (which we were hoping would appear online). Now I know the context it helps. So sorry you had to hold that session together. I totally support her views as her own obviously but based on the panel she was speaking at I think she could have found helpful insights to add, she is a professional after all.
And personal blogging is not dead. I think the key point made that could have been helpful (if not surrounded by woe) is that it is harder these days to make money from a personal (versus niche or business) blog without giving up a lot (ie what sponsors expect). And mrs woog’s response is perfection- the sponsored content I won’t turn away from is that which is a natural fit for the blog. And disclosure is key for me. I hate stand alone sponsored crap that’s like an ad. Tell me a story and I clude products and brands that are a fit for your site xx
You’ve got it in one Deb! It may be harder, but if it’s the right fit and you can write in the same voice as you’d always use, sponsored content can really work.
I do agree that even if Heather was feeling disillusioned, she still could have given a lot of insight to the session. She’s been doing this for so long she must know so much about how to make it all work. It’s a shame she couldn’t share that.
Lordy, what a tough gig for you! As a fellow journo, there’s nothing worse than an interview subject that won’t come to the party, but never had to go through it live like that. Why on earth did she agree to speak? I just really hope there aren’t a lot of people out of there who have taken what she’s said to heart and let it affect their hopes and dreams for their own blog. (PS I’m totes ignorant. Have never even heard of her!)
Oh god Zoe, doing it live is really hard! I’ve done HEAPS of dud interviews, but it’s not that bad when you know you can scrape one good grab out of it and dump the rest of the crap. But when you’re on a stage in front of a few hundred people there’s nowhere to hide. It’s all out there and everyone’s watching you scramble for a better answer. Yikes!
This is such a candid post. I didn’t find Heather to be a downer at all. I think she was being realistic about the way personal blogging has gone for her. I feel sad for her – but I also think it’s a really good wake up call for people not to make blogging their dependable income. Kayte also balanced the conversation nicely – showing that the Australian blogging scene and blogger profiles are different in Australia. Thanks for the great job you did moderating the conversation and for this post.
I’m so glad you got something fairly positive out of it Carly!
Lauren you handled the interview so well. Heather was in such a negative place that nothing anyone tried would have changed anything I don’t think. She obviously has a lot of healing to still do. You could literally feel the whole room deflate, I think it would have been better if she said to the organisers that she wasn’t up for the session as there were so many others there who could have stepped in. While we don’t need to be told that unicorns poo glitter we attended the session because we (I did anyway) wanted to find out practical ways to monetarise our blogs. Mrs Woog didn’t disappoint and I love how you took charge and graciously changed the focus to Mrs Woog instead. Keep on telling it like it is Lauren. x
Thanks so much Vicki! That was the only thing I could do really, just direct everything to Mrs Woog because I knew she was coming at it from a much more practical viewpoint. She really wanted to help people and share her knowledge. Heather didn’t seem to want to offer any practical advice, just her own personal pain. While I think there was something interesting in that, it’s not what people were there to hear.
I agree with what Chantelle said. While she might not do the sponsored post thing anymore, I’m pretty sure that she blogged about how she makes money in other ways because of her blog (like, um, speaking engagements?). So she does exactly what Mrs Woog said – has multiple streams of income relating to her blog.
Having said that – I think it was good having Heather there. Australia is usually a bit behind other parts of the world in most industries so what I took away was more of a heads up than anything else.
I definitely think it gave us an idea of how things COULD go Vanessa, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it WILL go that way. I think Mrs Woog has a different idea of how our industry is looking and it’s far more positive than the US. And I think it’s up to us to make sure we know how to deal with brands and set our own terms rather than let them dictate what and how we write. And definitely look at all the different streams of income and not rely on just one thing.
Heather was in such a weird place wasn’t she? That was my main takeaway from that session (other than the giggle I had at the look of terror that was on your face as you were about to start 🙂
Oh and my giggle was not a ‘ha ha you’re in trouble Lauren’ giggle. It was an ‘oh no, I can see what’s going down here’ nervous giggle for you!
As others have said – you handled it with aplomb xx
And there you go overthinking things again Kelly! 😉 You can giggle away. I’m sure I looked like a wreck. I truly sat there and had this moment of “Oh shit, this is NOT going to work at all” Not a great feeling to have as the session is just about to start!
I have never heard of the Heather or her blog. Why was she even at ProBlogger if she hates blogging?! If she quit blogging, then just quit completely and walk away and don’t rain on the parade!
I don’t attend ProBlogger by choice. This stuff isn’t for me. I am still not entirely sure who Darren Rowse actually is? (Or most of ProBlogger’s big ticket speakers.) ‘D
Cute pics of your journo days!
Well I don’t think she hates blogging, she’s literally made millions from it. She just hates the sponsored posts. And that has led her to taking a step back from her blog after 15 years of posting every day.
I want there but I can feel the awkwardness in your story. I haven’t been blogging that long, nearly 2 years and love it… 15 yrs is a long time though but if it made you mine..welllll
Haha, the awkwardness was definitely there on the day Natalie!
I thought you did a fantastic job Lauren! I must admit that it was a bit of a shock when the chat took the direction it did. I was poised with pen ready to jot down notes on how to monetize my blog from two of blogging’s greatest! Not one note was taken in fact. I can understand how Heather is jaded and that is why she has moved on but that is her story and not only that but blogging in the USA is a different kettle of fish than blogging in Australia. Thankfully Mrs Woog saved the day with a more positive opinion on personal blogging in Australia. I still learnt stuff from this session – just different stuff than what I was expecting! 🙂
You’re so right Min, it’s a whole different story in Australia and I think that was a great message to take away from the session. I’m glad you got something out of it!
Wow, that must have been hard for you! I’ll be honest, until just before PB I literally had no idea who Heather was. I know, I live under a rock. But how dossapointing for all her fans here. I’ll also admit I’m not a big fan of writing sponsored content so I can see where she’s coming from- but hardly the forum for it, was it?
You can say that again Amy! When the session is all about monetising, it’s probably best not to harp on about how monetising will destroy your soul. Not exactly the message people were expecting.
I didn’t come along to your session and in some ways am happy I missed it – not because of you of course!! One of the biggest things I took away from the weekend is that we are all running our own race and it’s up to us to make things happen.
Yes Lauren!! It’s different for every single person and there’s no one way to do it all. I got that message too.
Oh Lauren I felt for you during this session! You were great, such a professional and bought humour. Mrs W was awesome, hilarious and helpful. But Heather was a total Debbie Downer! She was in her first session too. My all time favourite part was when you called Mark Latham a dickhead. Haha
Aww, thank you Jade! I felt for me too! Hahaha! And Mark Latham totally is a dickhead. At the very least I got to publicly say that. Small wins!
I was there, and I think you handled it really well. A few of us were left looking at each other at the end asking “What just happened up there? That wasn’t what I thought I was coming for” Even though it took a wrong turn there was still a lot to learn and Heather’s experience is really valuable. Hopefully it is a lesson to us here in Australia to be aware of what coudnt happen and make different choices for our blogging community. Thanks for sharing this. It’s great to read the behind the scenes thoughts. I hope you had a great pbevent. I mean to come and say hi as I’m from Canberra too (I also run This Canberran Life). ?
Oh you should have come and said hello Lisa! I follow you on Insta!
I’m so glad you could see the positive in the session. I definitely think we need to focus on the fact that Australia is different and we still have a chance to change the way things will turn out for us.
Yes, I can imagine getting burned out after 15 years in the spotlight. It’s a shame she couldn’t distinguish her own personal journey from the blogging community at large and stay on topic. Hurrah for you and Mrs Woog!
Staying on topic would have been awesome Bec! But I think she was just in a place where she wanted to tell her story – whether people wanted to hear it or not. A BIG hurrah for Mrs Woog.
It was not lost on me that you were all sitting underneath a banner that read something about monetising our blogs. I left feeling drained and disillusioned. I had a really good heart to heart with another blogger and it felt like a good therapy session. Mrs Woog saved the day, you’re right. I had to remind myself that Dooce was burned out. That was clear. But it was a bit difficult to take in after the huge weekend we were having. I always appreciate honesty so I was thankful for hers, but the timing for what she had to deliver was way off. I do think you did a fantastic job trying over and over to save it, I already you that 🙂
That’s my biggest regret Jess – that people were on such a high and our session was the one that brought everyone crashing back down to earth. It was supposed to be fun and informative!
I walked out of both of Heather’s presentations, I really wanted to stay and hear all of what Kayte and yourself had to say, but I don’t like to waste my precious time…life is too short. That right there is what Heather should have said….life is short, when the joy from blogging is gone, then get out! Instead it seems she flogged a dead horse for too long and all I got from Heather was bitter, angry vibes. I didn’t pay money to listen to that hateful venom. I felt for you up on that stage steering that heavy weight of bitterness…you did a great job and I walked away thinking I don’t want to be anything like the American but would happily chill by the pool with the Aussie.
Yes to chilling by the pool! I think Aussies are COMPLETELY different to the Americans and I think Mrs Woog showed that perfectly. While Heather was lamenting the loss of storytelling and the chore of sponsored posts, Mrs Woog was laughing about the challenge of working a brand into a story you’d naturally tell and how she manages to get brands to do things HER way instead of the other way around. I think the Aussie way is the right way. We don’t take it all too seriously and if it gets too heavy, we can always walk away! It’s not life or death is it?
Yes, look, let’s be honest, that session was a train wreck and Mrs Woog (Kayte) did save that session. But reading behind the scenes and knowing you’ve interviewed high profilers before, you would have been the right person to ask to administrate the session. However, you’re only early in your blogging journey (and look at how far you’ve come gorgeous) maybe another blogger who has been in the game longer could have added more hope? But no one can undo what was said and done. So Heather and her friends hate blogging now, well as a blogging community lets learn from them and make sure we put processes in place to ensure we don’t blog so much that we hate it or hate ourselves for doing it. Having blogged for a couple of years, and had a few blogging wins myself, I was able to take the session with a grain of salt simply because that’s Heather’s story and not mine and certainly not yours. Your blog is so very well loved in the community Lauren. I love your sponsored content and I love your stories. We all have to learn that our stories do matter. I wish I could write to each blogger who attended that session and give them hope and really encourage them, because I feel a lot of deflated newbie bloggers left that session that day… but it’s all about your mindset and turning negativity or criticism into a positive. Great post lovely and I do wish I got to speak to you more. Hope you’re going well with your pregnancy too? xx
It wasn’t my job to add any hope Bec! I wasn’t supposed to add any of my own views or opinions, only to ask them questions. It was only up to Mrs Woog and Heather to give their experiences and opinions.
I didn’t mean for my comment to come across as an attack on you, and I didn’t realize you couldn’t say any of your own opinions or at least share a bit of your journey as a blogger. You were just to moderate, but I would have loved to have seen you challenge Heather more about her views and opinions. x
Sorry I didn’t measure up Bec!
You measure up just fine Lauren. I think you made the right decision not to grill her as you explained in your post. I think we were all stunned by the response so who am I to judge what should have been done on stage. You did good. xx
It also wasn’t my job to attack her on stage. There’s a fine line between asking a question a few different ways and having a go at someone. I chose to be professional and divert the conversation to Mrs Woog rather than start an argument with Heather.
You’re right. You made the right call. x
Thanks so much for sharing this and being so candid.
I didn’t get to attend Pro Blogger but I was hearing a few comments about the whole “personal blogging is dead” thing and reading about “don’t sell your soul” and I was feeling a bit sad about the changes in attitude. It all felt so negative.
Thank goodness for Mrs Woog!!!
Positivity, opportunity, possibility and finding solutions is back!
I think the bottom line is that if you have the strength and the writing skills to make a product post fall within your normal writing style (without selling out on your overall blogging “why”) then your readers won’t waiver.
Thanks again!
Love this …
That’s DEFINITELY the bottom line Leanne. If you have the skills and the motivation, there’s no reason to be so dire about the future.
I felt for you in that session, I really did. Praise be to you and Mrs W for holding it together. I’m still trying to work out what place a retired, disillusioned US blogger has at an Australian blogging conference talking about how to make money from a personal blog. I wanted to be inspired and motivated and instead I just felt demoralised and depressed. If I’d have found the plug for my blog upon exiting the session, I’d have been sure to pull it!
Sammie, that would be a disaster! I hope you’re not feeling that way anymore?
Hey Sammie – when they first booked Heather to come she wasn’t retired and disillusioned!
They should have replaced her when she quit. She made no bones about the fact that she was over blogging before she came out. She was not the right person to headline a blogging conference.
They did consider replacing her but they talked to her and decided she still had so much experience and insight after 15 years in the game. Just because someone has ‘retired’ doesn’t mean they don’t have any value anymore.
Unfortunately she’d been away from her kids from too long and her frame of mind was so negative when she walked into that session that any promise of sharing her years of experience went out the window and ended up a bit of a therapy session.
If you look at her Instagram, Heather is frequently (usually?) away from her girls. I get how the sheer distance could have been a factor, but I think you’re being too kind about her ‘missing her girls’. Her message since retiring is that blogging is dead. Except she’s still, you know, blogging.
I used to adore Dooce. It’s a shame you couldn’t have the Dooce of 4-5 years ago; that would have been an awesome interview!
Oh, you had a super tough gig.
I actually walked out, and it wasn’t because of you and Kayte, you guys held it together. I just didn’t want to leave the conference on that note. I get what she’s saying, but I don’t believe that personal blogging is dead. I believe the model that she created doesn’t work for her anymore and that’s fine. I’m not her, and no one in Australia is her {they didn’t start when she did, they don’t have her profile}. All of our stories are different from hers, and we have to create our own way forward.
So I walked out because of that, AND because my boobs were about to explode from weaning.
Oh god Chantelle, it’s awful that so many people felt that way. I wish it had been so different. I really hoped that Heather would be able to put a positive (or at least a practical) spin on her experience and show how things could/should be different for other people. Unfortunately I don’t think she was in the right frame of mind to offer hope to anyone.
I love this, Lauren. I am still incredibly bummed to have missed this one because of my stupid migraine because it was the session that really got everything talking. At the time I’m sure it felt quite dire but I think it has been a great opportunity for our whole community to reflect on what we do and the reasons for doing it. And it made a lot of us realise that we really do love telling – and reading stories – and that personal blogging is far from dead.
I really hope it gave people something to think about and made everyone a bit more determined to follow their own path and not worry about what some other blogger thinks.
i think I was lucky I hadn’t followed Heather very much so she didn’t disappoint. I was a little more like, ‘really? This woman? She hates the world!’ I did think some of her comments where a little childish, the ‘no mummy blogger I know’ enjoys blogging any more was a little like telling someone they have no friends in the playground. You did so great and Mrs Woog come up with the motivating goods wether she knows it or not. Loved reading your honesty x
She was certainly in the wrong mindset to be offering advice Karin. I just feel really sad that it upset so many people.
You handled that interview brilliantly. When Heather started talking about how soul destroying sponsored blogging had become I could feel the audience deflate like an old balloon. Being a science nerd I admired Richard Dawkins for years until I met him at a conference and found out he is a bitter old man with no hope for humanity. I was crushed!
It’s a shame when the person you’re excited to meet doesn’t quite measure up, isn’t it Kira?
I had that same feeling just reading one of his books. I loved that he (or the PR version of him, perhaps) loved science but I started reading one of his books & found it really rude against religion.
And I’m an athleist who often complains about religion’s influence in society & politics!
I had the same experience with Dawkins. He also made some pretty anti feminist remarks. So disappointing!